Episode 6
LGBTQ+ History Month: In conversation with alumnus Jamie Richardson
Music created by Jahzzar under CC BY-SA 4.0, remixed, duration shortened.
Transcript
Hello and welcome. Today, I have the pleasure of speaking to James Richardson, a recent graduate from our BSc in International Business. And he is currently the development lead at Switchboards the largest LGBT+ helpline. Welcome Jamie, and thank you so much for joining us.
Jamie:Hi Edgar.
Jamie:Thank you for having me.
Edgar:And before we start a few words, if I may, we are recording this podcast in celebration of LGBTQ Plus History Month 2022. Indeed, it's the anniversary recording of this podcast series, with the first podcast recorded pretty much exactly one year ago to mark the same occasion.
Edgar:This year's tagline for LGBTQ Black History Month is a quote from Dr. Martin Luther King. The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends to its justice. This resonates greatly with me. While this year, for example, also marks the 50th anniversary of the first Pride march in the UK, and we can recognize quite a lot
Edgar:of progress for the LGBTQ+ community, there remains still lots to be done. And for me, celebrating as well as making visible the rich diversity of this community, is one way in which we may be able to continue our work to its great equality, equity and inclusion.
Edgar:And on that note, let me turn to our guest, Jamie, let's start with the organization you work for. Maybe you can tell our listeners a little bit more about what Switchboard is and what it does.
Jamie:Yeah, absolutely.
Jamie:So I mean.
Jamie:It really depends how much you want to.
Jamie:Know. But Switchboard is a confidential helpline.
Jamie:It's open to the LGBTQ plus communities and beyond.
Jamie:So we're open from 10:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m..
Jamie:365 days a year.
Jamie:We operate a.
Jamie:Telephone line, instant messaging service, an email service, so all different kinds of people reach out switchboard.
Jamie:Those both young or old.
Jamie:They come from all across the UK, from those living in the big city to.
Jamie:Those in remote.
Jamie:Villages.
Jamie:And obviously we know there.
Jamie:Are many more out there who aren't reaching out to anyone for support. We take roughly around 20,000 calls a year.
Jamie:So that could be the first time someone's ever said that they're gay. It could be.
Jamie:From someone who is rejected by their.
Jamie:Family.
Jamie:Because of their gender identity or someone just needing a friend.
Jamie:I know you mentioned that pride.
Jamie:Coming up to its 50th birthday and switchboards actually one of the oldest LGBT charities in the.
Jamie:UK.
Jamie:It's a 48th birthday march this year, so a lot, a lot of history there as well.
Edgar:It's. Interesting, I think, to know that the charity is 48 years old and with all of the progress that we talk about within that community, that the need seems to not have gone away for a charity like yours.
Jamie:Absolutely, absolutely.
Jamie:I mean, we took our first.
Jamie:Call.
Jamie:In the.
Jamie:Basement of Harrison's Bookshop near King's Cross in 1974. The bookshop still.
Jamie:There.
Jamie:So switchboards at the time was created by queer activists after the partial decriminalization of homosexuality.
Jamie:And.
Jamie:1967 so fat people essentially seeking information and advice in the days before Google. So switchboards, like I said, been there throughout queer contemporary history.
Jamie:And.
Jamie:I mean, really interesting things that we can. We got all the log books or the call logs from every call taken at Switchboard. So our volunteers will make a note of the details of those calls after after every call.
Jamie:And they contain a really.
Jamie:Rich detail about queer life during police raids. You know, the HIV aids crisis.
Jamie:We've got.
Jamie:We've got records in there from Admiral Duncan bombings.
Jamie:Section 28. So whatever the.
Jamie:Community has asked, Switchboard is answered. Whatever it was, switchboard has really been a lifeline to the queer people for those 48 years.
Edgar:It's fascinating. I can only imagine the rich history that is encapsulated in some of those things and out of personal interest have people actually gone through and looked through this in more detail and, for example, discovered some trends around how the nature of the calls has changed?
Jamie:Yes, absolutely.
Jamie:I don't know if I'm allowed to do a little plug here.
Edgar:Of course you are.
Jamie:But our..
Jamie:Co-Chair Tasha Walker narrates a podcast called The Log Books, so this explores the log entries from switchboard volunteers from 1974. So like we were saying, it demonstrates how we need to really learn from our past that these entries from seventies, eighties about shame, depression, anxiety and those are calls that we're seeing today.
Jamie:And it is.
Jamie:Just an incredibly.
Jamie:Moving.
Jamie:Podcast and I can't recommend it enough.
Edgar:Thank you. Definitely something we should plug. But for me, interesting and that is that even if the times have moved on, there is legally greater inclusion, arguably societal, greater inclusion, in particular in many parts of the society. But certain aspects seemingly haven't changed.
Edgar:And you said that things like shame, depression, anxiety are still at the forefront of many of individuals in that community.
Jamie:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean.
Jamie:Particularly over lockdown, we saw a huge increase in calls that mentioned anxiety, isolation, depression over lockdown as.
Jamie:Well.
Jamie:I think LGBTQ plus people were one of the most vulnerable communities. We saw a 65% increase in demand for our services at that height.
Jamie:And I think.
Jamie:Lockdown just compounded those feelings of isolation and loneliness. You know, people being forced back into the closet, maybe they're moving in with their homophobic or transphobic parents. We we interestingly, we saw an increase in demand for instant messaging services over lockdown as people might not feel safe to express themselves out loud.
Jamie:Like over the phone in case.
Jamie:They might be overheard. We also saw elderly people reaching out just to speak to someone.
Jamie:Yeah, so a huge.
Jamie:Pressure increase on the isolation of depression.
Edgar:It kind of jumped ahead. And one of the questions it's very interesting to see, and I think 65% is quite a lot, and I'm sure it says something about the need for this particular in terms of when you go back.
Edgar:But if that even more in terms of your experience and your insight, are there any particular segments of the LGBTQ plus community that use the service more often than others or indeed are overlooked and don't seem to be accessing the service as much as other groups?
Jamie:Yeah, I mean, well, so I guess Switchboard.
Jamie:Is there for the.
Jamie:LGBTQ+ community in its entirety. So as I said before, we are all kinds of people reaching out. We support a lot of elderly people who are feeling isolated or depressed. We have seen a 42% increase in transgender and gender non-conforming people calling us since the lockdown.
Jamie:So whether that's treatment being paused, rising hate crimes, misinformation or hate. Yesterday suggested delay on conversion therapy by HRC I think the trans community is particularly vulnerable at the moment. Very scarily the media rhetoric around trans people at the moment is very similar to that of gay men during the seventies, eighties and nineties, and it's absolutely
Jamie:abhorrent. And so obviously a lot of that's documented in log books as well.
Jamie:We also get.
Jamie:A lot of people coming out. So I guess we call it the coming out call. So sometimes just saying I'm gay out loud can be a terrifying first step in someone's journey. Their coming out journey. So Switchboard can hold that space for that person, which is incredibly special obviously, and coming out slices across all ages.
Jamie:So we think of coming out as a younger person thing, but.
Jamie:There.
Jamie:Are people addressing their sexuality at all ages. Older people, for.
Jamie:Example, maybe their kids.
Jamie:Have left, maybe their opposite sex partner has died. Now they feel they can come out. We see things in the media often influence calls that we receive as well. So when Phillip Schofield came out a couple of years ago now we saw a significant rise in older LGBTQ folk calling us and coming out over the phone.
Edgar:Thank you. That's fascinating. I will most definitely follow up some of the logbook work because it seems to be, as I say, really interesting and more importantly, still of such importance. And I think some listeners may not necessarily appreciate the importance of the service that switchboard, for example, offers around that.
Edgar:Can I move a little bit closer to you, maybe and ask what led you to volunteer for Switchboard, which I know is that is where you started as a volunteer. And of course, now you working full time for them.
Edgar:So maybe you can tell our listeners a bit more about your motivation to volunteer and then that journey to full time work at this organization.
Jamie:Yeah, I mean, so I.
Jamie:Actually first heard about Switchboard through their Pride Skittles campaign. So I'm not sure if you've seen this, but you might have noticed that Skittles give the rainbow back to the LGBTQ plus community over pride in their sweets and packaging are completely black and white.
Jamie:So I've got a massive.
Jamie:Sweet tooth immediately caught my eye as.
Jamie:A percentage.
Jamie:Of the profits goes to switchboard from this campaign.
Edgar:I didn't know that.
Jamie:Yeah, well, the sweets will have different flavors as well, so I definitely recommend that as well as the log works, another plug.
Jamie:That is where I first saw.
Jamie:The service.
Jamie:On the back.
Jamie:Of one of those packages and I was working for a tech startup at the time. I just moved back.
Jamie:From the states having worked over there.
Jamie:And I was looking to connect with the LGBTQ community, having volunteered with several other organizations in the past. So the onboarding process for Switchboard can be quite long.
Jamie:Just because.
Jamie:They want to make sure.
Jamie:That they're getting the right people. So it.
Jamie:Was a little while before I got through.
Jamie:There's an interview
Jamie:Process and you undergo 60 hours of training, which prepares you for every call.
Jamie:So there's a.
Jamie:Cat course, which is the first 30 hours and it focuses around active listening skills, predominantly. And then I volunteered for Switchboard for two to three years before the opportunity arose for a full time role to lead the fundraising and development strategy.
Jamie:So Switchboard has always and always will be a volunteer-led organization, so I really did just leap at the opportunity to be part of.
Jamie:Another initiative.
Jamie:In the organization outside the phone room.
Jamie:It really was a no.
Jamie:Brainer for me. Switchboard volunteering at switchboard changes you and as a listening volunteer. You're connected to the.
Jamie:Community, to the lives of queer people in the UK and.
Jamie:Sometimes globally in a very personal way. Erm so, I remember volunteering at student Pride one year and someone came up to the table to say thank you for helping me and just walked away. And I've heard similar stories from other volunteers.
Jamie:Either on the phone.
Jamie:Who've received thankyou calls or other events. So I think just by lending an ear and providing that space really saves people's lives, and often we don't see that what happens after the call? What's the aftermath of some of those calls?
Jamie:So it's receiving those thankyous and those messages is this incredibly precious thing.
Edgar:Can I ask? And this may well be too personal, but what led you to volunteer in the first place?
Jamie:I think I was feeling incredibly grateful and very lucky. I just moved back.
Jamie:From the states and.
Jamie:I was like back around my family again and my.
Jamie:My friends.
Jamie:In the UK and I just.
Jamie:Very.
Jamie:Supportive.
Jamie:Network of people around me.
Jamie:And you know.
Jamie:A lot of queer people don't have that for whatever reason.
Jamie:And that was probably my most compelling reason. But I've always.
Jamie:Had like a desire to to help people. And like I said, I had worked with.
Jamie:Other.
Jamie:LGBT Plus organizations in the past, but nothing that was kind of, I guess, as on the ground as switchboard in the sense that you're you're working directly with the people that you're trying to help.
Edgar:And I guess there is always a need for more volunteers and individuals to support the organization.
Jamie:Absolutely. 100%.
Edgar:Thank you for sharing that, and I'm sure it must have been an amazing journey, probably sometimes quite harrowing as well listening to some of those stories. But I think, as we said, it's quite an important part of that.
Edgar:I know that besides that, volunteering part of your current role, but also part of your volunteering work is that you do a lot of outreach work in schools, for example. And we have talked about this on the separate occasions that schools are very much an inclusive place or try to be an inclusive place for the LGBTQ plus
Edgar:community. Can I ask, from my perspective, coming from a university as a recent graduate, what do you see as being different in schools compared to how LGBTQ plus issues are discussed or managed at university?
Jamie:Yeah, I mean, I would.
Jamie:Say I think it's.
Jamie:Hard to compare schools directly against universities when there's so much divergence across schools and universities nationally.
Jamie:So I think I've got a very narrow.
Jamie:View from my experience in the ones I've interact to it through switchboard.
Jamie:We get requests from.
Jamie:Both universities and schools to speak with our students. These are typically led by one teacher or a pride group.
Jamie:So for schools and universities, they typically engage with us.
Jamie:And we're almost always happy to oblige. We talked about microaggressions, sexuality, gender identities, pronouns, LGBTQ plus.
Jamie:History.
Jamie:And just the switchboard service. Of course.
Jamie:There are other.
Jamie:Organizations like Just Like US and diversity role models that kind of do a more proactive outreach.
Jamie:And their focus.
Jamie:Is specifically around LGBTQ plus awareness and visibility and anti-bullying within schools, all of which wouldn't have actually been possible in the time of Section 28.
Edgar:And some people forget that it's actually quite recent history.
Jamie:Yeah, absolutely. I think.
Jamie:It was wiped from the statute books in 2003.
Jamie:And whenever I.
Jamie:Go into schools and talk about Section 28, the kids are horrified that something like that existed.
Jamie:And that most of the time they have no awareness.
Jamie:Of something like that existed.
Edgar:So maybe not all of our listeners will know what Section 28 is so if you could give a nut shell sort of summary of that potentially, I think it would strengthen the impact of the work and what you're talking. Yeah.
Jamie:Absolutely. So I'm probably going to butcher the.
Jamie:The.
Jamie:The summary, but essentially it made it illegal.
Jamie:For teachers to talk about anything LGBTQ plus related in schools.
Jamie:So I think it was some like something like the promotion of.
Jamie:LGBTQ plus ideology or something.
Edgar:Yeah, I think it's fascinating that people think that within the UK this has long been gone and it is as recent as the early 2000s that this was indeed only taken out by local government and local authorities who are responsible for schools.
Jamie:100% and like half half.
Jamie:My education was under Section 28.
Jamie:And then the.
Jamie:second half I was under the repercussions of it. And I think.
Jamie:It was actually.
Jamie:When section was repealed in 2003.
Jamie:It didn't mean that there was a sudden influx of.
Jamie:People talking about queer issues in schools. It really those after effects really did stay around. I think really, it's only now that we're seeing.
Jamie:Real.
Jamie:Change and you'll have to fact check me on this.
Jamie:But I actually think.
Jamie:LGBTQ plus History Month was founded in 2005 following the repeal of Section 20.
Edgar:It was it was, yeah, we talked last year in the first podcast that we did briefly about that, and it was in response to to raising some of them, although I can't remember the the. Exactly. So I think it's fascinating and I think it evidences that we have made a lot of progress.
Edgar:But indeed, some of the stories that you have shared already today sees that the progress isn't as far as we could have gone. And I'm going to stick for a moment with universities, and I'm going to ask you about some more personal reflections and as a gay young man at university, particularly having said that, you've done quite
Edgar:a lot of your education under Section 28. But for me, what is particularly interesting here is that there's still a large proportion of university students that wants to enter the workforce LGBTQ plus students. A large proportion of them go back into the closet when entering the job market.
Jamie:Hmm.
Edgar:Maybe tell our listeners a little bit more about your experience at university. And it doesn't have to be, you know, specific about Leeds or anything specific aspect would be interesting to sort of hear your reflections on that and why you think that still is the case.
Jamie:Yeah, I.
Jamie:Mean, you're so right it's common for people to go back in the closet, and I think that's.
Jamie:Something we.
Jamie:Hear time and time again at Switchboard, whether they're entering the workforce for the first time, moving to a new company or leaving.
Jamie:London to a more rural.
Jamie:Town, for example.
Jamie:And again, I don't.
Jamie:Think it matters what age you are.
Jamie:In.
Jamie:This society. You can be forced back into the closet at any age.
Jamie:So I personally had quite a varied experience.
Jamie:When I left the university. I worked in the states.
Jamie:For a while for a start up.
Jamie:Of six people who were spread.
Jamie:Globally. So I was.
Jamie:Effectively a traveling salesman where predominantly I worked on my.
Jamie:Own and.
Jamie:I was able to live in queer and diverse spaces.
Jamie:And then when I moved to London.
Jamie:I joined the startup where I was in a tiger team, a large organization, and that was quite a shock for.
Jamie:Little.
Jamie:Gay me.
Jamie:So at that time, I didn't quite appreciate how.
Jamie:Work culture can impact your day to day experience your motivation, overall happiness.
Jamie:So I'm cis.
Jamie:White, straight passing gay man. So that obviously comes with a lot of privilege.
Jamie:But the.
Jamie:Immediate assumption was that I was.
Jamie:Straight. And so that can be.
Jamie:Quite exhausting coming out over and over again, particularly when you first kind of.
Jamie:Join a company. And I think another thing maybe that I hadn't considered was my.
Jamie:Perception of the relationship between professionalism and queerness.
Jamie:And I think professionalism is.
Jamie:Quite a funny term because it almost masquerades as quite neutral.
Jamie:But it's.
Jamie:Actually quite loaded.
Jamie:And as a concept, I.
Jamie:Think professionalism is racist, sexist.
Jamie:Homophobic, transphobic.
Jamie:Classist. So all.
Jamie:Those things. But yeah, and I say my own.
Jamie:Perception because this is wasn't something I was explicitly told in any of my previous roles, but yeah, I think that that was something that I. I had to confront when I joined, and I know, for example.
Jamie:For others, especially those who are gender nonconforming.
Jamie:Being closeted at work isn't an option. So that's extremely scary for the trans and non-binary people who are subject to increased workplace discrimination.
Jamie:Just.
Jamie:Based on those enforcements of of binary gender norms.
Edgar:And I think it is as simple as. Talking about yourself, your partners, pronouns and assumptions around that that you refer to in terms of the continuing coming out, for example, that's just the way people assume your relationship status or what you are.
Edgar:And I think many may not appreciate that these things happen because it's not something that they experience on a day-to-day basis.
Jamie:Absolutely.
Edgar:Jamie, you talked about work culture. Was there anything specific about that culture? So can you put your finger on what it was that you found irking?
Jamie:Yeah. So I think I think at that time, I had heard homophobic slurs. People were using the gay in like a.
Jamie:Negative way quite liberally, and we got to a point.
Jamie:Where they introduced.
Jamie:Anti-harassment training is about two hours long and I was like, Great, we're finally going to get somewhere. And hopefully this is going to.
Jamie:Directly.
Jamie:Mention some of the issues I've been experiencing.
Jamie:As I said it was, it was about.
Jamie:two hours long and there was not one single mention of.
Jamie:Homophobia, transphobia, and it listed many other things and there was even.
Jamie:A homophobic slur in there at some point, which they didn't call out.
Jamie:So I was so.
Jamie:Angry.
Jamie:And I and quite scared.
Jamie:In all honesty, I was like, What does this actually mean about this? This company's work culture.
Jamie:So I met with.
Jamie:The H.R. director who was extremely receptive to everything I was saying.
Jamie:And actually, based on.
Jamie:That, I created a champions network. So to secure funding for that or budget, I put together a business case for a champions group network, which was, I think.
Jamie:The heftiest amount of text I've.
Jamie:Written since my dissertation.
Jamie:But yeah, and so on the back of this, we created a network.
Jamie:Of groups.
Jamie:Procurement policies.
Jamie:Hiring changes, mentoring programs for leadership.
Jamie:And when I actually.
Jamie:Started this, I had several.
Jamie:Other queer.
Jamie:People come find me at my desk and just to thank me and tell me that they thought they were the only queer people at the company.
Jamie:Which I think is often.
Jamie:All too easy in large organizations where you either can find within the teams that you're working in. Or there is this assumption that if someone isn't visibly queer, then there aren't queer people there.
Edgar:Thank you for sharing that, and it must have been quite a shocking experience when otherwise you were able to live your life in your authentic self and then experiencing something like this. But it segues me nicely into another question I had, which was all about from your experience, from volunteering, from your work, but also from the sort
Edgar:of narratives and stories that you have sort of engaged with yourself around these things. What lessons have you learned or can you share with, for example, the university, our organization or indeed any organization that aims to build a stronger support for its LGBTQ plus community?
Jamie:Well, I think this is always a big question, isn't it? I mean, we often get asked this from large corporates who particularly now.
Jamie:Are trying to build more inclusive environments.
Jamie:So we.
Jamie:Get a lot of our partner organizations raise questions around the topic of pronouns and how we want to introduce the idea of pronouns with.
Jamie:Maybe.
Jamie:Staff members who aren't familiar with the idea and how we support transgender employees and things like that.
Jamie:I think first and most importantly.
Jamie:The support needs to come from the top of the organization if the organizational culture is ever really going to change.
Jamie:And I think secondly.
Jamie:A more LGBTQ plus workplace or educational space shouldn't become.
Jamie:A unpaid.
Jamie:second job for queer workers.
Jamie:And like.
Jamie:I said before, companies often claim they don't need LGBTQ plus specific policies if.
Jamie:They don't.
Jamie:Or since they don't have observably LGBTQ plus employees.
Jamie:But that might just.
Jamie:Be a case because people don't feel comfortable coming out.
Jamie:And so I think.
Jamie:It's the company or the organization's responsibility to create a more affirming environment for LGBTQ plus people through conscious allyship.
Jamie:And so. Yeah, I think.
Jamie:I think organizations just need to understand that coming out at work can be.
Jamie:Risky and it carries the.
Jamie:Opportunity of huge reward, but then it's also quite scary thing for a lot of people.
Jamie:And so I think I ticked off a few of those things. But in summary, I would say, A, it needs to come from the top.
Jamie:Of the organization.
Jamie:And , B,
Jamie:It shouldn't be a second unpaid job for queer workers. It needs to have resources behind it.
Edgar:I think. This is very reassuring in many ways, but also. Tackles that idea that you said it's quite a big thing to ask, but also to tackle. I think for me a couple of things that you mentioned around in terms of declaring it's a huge problem in large organizations, as you mentioned yourself actually understanding the.
Edgar:Your organization and the diversity within your organization, if people are not willing or if you're worried about sharing who they are around that, I really love the term conscious allyship. I think we I'm certainly familiar with the term of performative allyship say.
Edgar:one might argue opposite and more positive aspect around that is that we are conscious allies, and I'm I'm sure that's something that I will most definitely use more actively. Thank you. I didn't really wasn't aware of that. And I think the other parts that you that you talked about, which I thought was resonates with other diverse groups
Edgar:and communities, is this this reliance or this expectation of those that are the ones being disadvantaged also having to do the work of moving the goalposts? When I talked to some of our colleagues in our black communities, I heard and similar things and it resonates quite deeply.
Edgar:So thank you for sharing that. We didn't talk much about education really here, but I think it kind of possibly is not always just the right thing because, as you say, just having, for example, harassment training that doesn't mention all of the different forms of harassment may then not be necessary.
Edgar:But I'm going to come to that because one of the inspirational indeed aspirations of the LGBTQ Plus History Month is to educate out prejudice. Is there anything at sort of that you want to say about this? How does that resonate with you?
Edgar:Is there any particular sort of angle that you have on that?
Jamie:Yeah, I mean, I think of obviously, it's.
Jamie:Important that we.
Jamie:Celebrate.
Jamie:LGBTQ plus icons, and as queer people, we have to find our own history. As we mentioned, Section 28. Our LGBTQ plus history is integral to who we are. It's.
Jamie:You know, the.
Jamie:Ability I have to walk down the street with my partner.
Jamie:And queer history is.
Jamie:Social. It's political and it's incredibly intersectional. It touches absolutely everything. And I think we mentioned this before, but we need to study what's happened in our past and understand what has come before it so we can move forward.
Edgar:Thank you for that. I think for me, I have no further questions. There's lots to think about. Lots to pick up. And I actually leave that. The quote I started with that the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends to its justice was substantiated in our conversation and that we shown the progress that we
Edgar:have made, for example, around Section 28. But recognizing that there's still much to do when many things around shame, depression, anxiety haven't really changed. Jamie, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for speaking with us and sharing your insight, your experience, so I very much appreciate it.
Edgar:Thank you Edgar.
